Ramnani: Welcome to share it with me. In this episode, we are joined by remarkable guest Nangkeng, a passionate women's and girls rights activist from Cameroon with a background in women and gender studies, sociology and anthropology. Nangkeng has dedicated years of her life to addressing one of the most urgent global issues of our time, gender based violence. From working as a trainer and facilitator across institutions to raising awareness through advocacy and community engagement, her work focuses on both the prevention of violence and the support of survivors. In this conversation, she shares deeply insightful perspectives on why gender based violence persists across cultures, the systemic barriers survivors face in seeking justice, and the critical role of education, law enforcement, and community attitudes in shaping outcomes. Let's begin.

Ramnani: Hi, Nangkeng. How are you?

Nangkeng: I'm very well, thank you. How are you doing?

Ramnani: I am doing good.

Nangkeng: I'm happy to see you finally.

Ramnani: I am really pleased to see you too.

Nangkeng: Oh. Me too.

Ramnani: Can you tell me a bit about yourself?

Nangkeng: I am a women's and girls rights activist. I hold a degree also in Women and Gender studies and sociology and anthropology. I'm a Cameroonian by nationality, and I'm very much passionate and committed towards advocating for the rights of women and girls, especially in the area of the prevention and response to gender based violence. And I've been a resource person, a facilitator, and a trainer of different institutions to go about awareness raising, messaging, crafting, and passing on to different communities, advocacy processes, the management of gender based violence through respecting the principles and adherence to the standard operating procedures.

Ramnani: According to the Mail and Guardian newspaper, in 2022, there were 42,289 rapes reported in 2019/2020 as well as 7749 sexual assaults. This translates into about 115 rapes a day. South Africa has one of the highest rape statistics in the world, even higher than some countries at war. I would like to get your views on why the cases of rape are so high in South Africa. Is there anything particular about South Africa that is the reason behind this statistic?

Nangkeng: So in the case of South Africa, I may not have a perfect grasp of what the South African context holds. But again, fundamental reasons for rape cases may cut across African countries or countries worldwide. The justifications also, the fundamental reasons are most times really much alike. Getting to prove rape in many cases is difficult. So many cases are thrown out of the courts and are not even aware that there is something that is called forensic examination that should be done by a medical practitioner before they being able to get a medical legal certificate, which will help them to provide this level of the court to justify that they were actually being raped. It becomes very difficult for the survivor, even if they want to pursue legal support group this case. This sort of discourages many survivors from disclosing incidents and then raises another wave of perpetrators. We've seen cases where perpetrator was brought into court, has cases of a previous history of abusing. This could be some of the reasons why the rates of rape are at an increase. Then one of the perspective is the culture of a people that gets to exacerbate this practice. And again, there aren't any norms. There aren't any policies that get to punish a case of abuse. It gets to turn out like we are somewhat in a jungle and everybody just gets to do whatever they want to do and goes away with it scot-free. So if we can also have cultures and practices, great perspective or ideologies. It's going to build a community where rapists actually know that this is a human rights violation.

Ramnani: I see.

Nangkeng: It's just about abuse of power. When you do a lot of awareness raising and a lot of advocacy in line with survivors, being able to break the silence and seek justice, talk freely about their experiences, to be able to seek timely and quality services. You get to discover that there is an increase in the number of people who get to talk about it. We get to feel that there is rather an increase in incidents.

Ramnani: Such a strong point.

Nangkeng: The case of South Africa may be peculiar from other countries. There is also development contexts. Here, people just don't talk about rape.

Ramnani: Sure.

Nangkeng: So this is something which we just have to look at.

Ramnani: Okay. Can you tell me about the attitudes towards rape victims by their families, the police and the wider community?

Nangkeng: Okay, let's start first of all, with families in the Cameroonian context, in other African countries where I've gotten to work with other institutions, there is a perception, especially among Muslim communities and some of the Christian families as well. When a girl is being raped, it may seem as though she's not supposed to talk about it, because first she's going to ruin the family's reputation. There has been incidents where close relatives also get raped. It could be the uncle of the woman or the mother of the survivor. It could be the relative of the man in question. And most times, these people do not want the population to the society or the rest of the family to know that they have an abuser within the family.

Ramnani: Really?

Nangkeng: When a young girl is being raped, there is less chances that she gets a husband because she also doesn't want to be known to be the girl who's once been raped. So when families get to hide those, sometimes they do not take actions on the perpetrator. They do not help the survivor to seek justice. They somewhat deprive also the survivor from seeking services. Because, for example, if you were to seek medical aid, you need to also explain what happened. If you needed to talk to the police about the incident that happened. The family will still need to explain what also happened. Also come across incidents where children are unable to find the right words to explain exactly what had happened to them. Why? Because in most African countries and my country, Cameroon, it is very difficult for parents to go about comprehensive sexuality education with kids. And if families aren't able to educate children on the sort of stuff when they happen, the children would not even be aware that they've been abused. I have also seen family members who do not believe kids when they explain incidents. Some people even go as far as telling kids that they just want to ruin their marriage. How can you say that my husband raped you?

Ramnani: Right.

Nangkeng: And when that happens, the perpetrator who most times isn't so far from the family feels like, oh, you can abuse a kid again. After all, you're not going to be believed. People who do not have families they can turn to or finance illegal procedures. It becomes even much more challenging for them and worse off again, because if a family isn't even aware that there is legal provision, that there is institutions or available services, they wouldn't even be able to support the survivor services. As to who do I go to? Who do I talk to? Why is it important for me to go to the hospital? Why is it important for me to see a psychologist? Why is it important to prioritize the safety and security of the kid? Persons within the rural area may have some level of this information. People who are in the rural context, who do not even have access to television, mobile phones, or readable material around the whole abuse, may just not even be aware. How am I supposed to go about this whole thing? Now looking at the police, for example. Police generally supposed to be there to ensure the safety of survivors in Tanzania and Kenya. Most times when a rape incident happens, the very first thing you're supposed to do is to notify the police. And the police gives you a form, which you're supposed to fill before you take this to, to, to seek help, support.

Ramnani: I understand.

Nangkeng: Most times, rape isn't a thing that people feel very comfortable talking about. First, there is people who do not want to be known as Survivors of rape. But now this is you not going straight for health services, but needing to go to talk to a police. When a survivor talks about an incident once, it means she has lived the situation twice. When she talks about it twice, it means she has lived the incident again. So this is me going to talk to the police, people within the community to not know where to go to, who's going to gather my information and then help me get the support from the police. Now we can we get to breach confidentiality, which is a very, very prime principle when it comes to managing cases of gender based violence. The police services are not properly structured. Most times the police does not understand standard operating procedures when it comes to managing cases of gender based violence, but they do not have enough resources. For example, in a case where we've had survivors who say they went to the police station, but the they said that they said there wasn't a car that was supposed to accompany them to the field to apprehend the perpetrator or to go about their investigation. Now, this is it. In the development context, the police, most times in the humanitarian context, will have just limited or just nothing to do because these structures that are supposed to ensure the safety and security of civilians get to be destroyed. You get to discover that there is communities that still reinforce the blame the survivor. So when a survivor is being raped, there is a thing of what were you wearing? Where are you going to? Where were you walking at night? Who are you going to see? But again, how did you invite a perpetrator to rape you? You didn't write on your body dressing hasn't got anything to do with a person being raped. I have seen incidents of two months old being raped.

Ramnani: Oh, no.

Nangkeng: So what was the two month old wearing? It's less of a thing of dressing. It's not a thing of the night also, but it's just a question of power. So if we do not have communities in communities where they still have this blameless survivor tendency, or do not have laws and policies that get to punish cases of rape. There is likelihood that the rates are rather going to be exacerbated. However, we have worked in communities who are able to put in place policies that get to punish incidents of rape severely. We've had community leaders who were able to go on the radio and TV to talk about the prevention of rape. Generally, a lot of countries that have adopted policies, strategic documents have a domesticated. Also some ratified policies and conventions that have to do with the prevention of rape, where the community doesn't have a good attitude towards supporting survivors of rape. You get to discover that the prevalence of rape within those communities gets to be at an increase. And when legal systems continue to throw cases of rape out of the court and having many more perpetrators on the street. It is no doubt that the rate of rape is going to be at an increase. Stakeholders need to put in place other mechanisms to see that even rape perpetrators can be converted to advocates on the prevention of rape. Communities need to call out the traitors and tag them as such. They should be known, and it should be clear these are these people who are dangerous to people within the community. They should be put behind bars because that's where they belong.

Ramnani: So what do you think is wrong with the culture?

Nangkeng: The culture needs to first of all, recognise that rape is abuse. There is something wrong happening within a particular community of that particular community. Is it silent in the face of incidents of rape? But we've also had incidents of even Muslim girls who are entirely dressed in covered right down to their feet and fingers, and yet they are raped. So there is cultures that feel that if a girl is being raped, it's because she was promiscuous. Those are just stereotypes. If we start looking at the culture of a people that says that we need to value the rights of each other, every other person has a right and control over their bodies. People should be able to respect every individual indiscriminate of what they are wearing, where they find themselves, what they are doing. It's terms from cultures being able to say, we can be able to punish this incident. So if cultures are still unable to call out perpetrators in cases of abuse, then it's problematic. There is also cultures that do not recognize that rape has negative consequences on the survivor. So if a culture also says that if a girl has been raped, she can never get married. There is people who also feel that if I were the one who raped this girl, her family is automatically going to make her marry me? Because no other man will get married to a woman who has been raped. So we've had incidents of people who say, oh, she was he. He had been asking me out. He has been wanting to get married to me, but I've been refusing. So he forcefully rapes the girl because he knows that the family will obligatorily give her out in marriage to this man. Because if a man defiles a girl, then in order to put away the shame from the family, hide the fact that he raped her. So that is part of the culture valuing marriage over human rights. And the worst thing about this is sometimes the girls who are also actually given out in this manner, teenage girls. And by so doing their future, their career, everything else is being compromised.

Ramnani: I see.

Nangkeng: And there is also a lot of dangers when it comes to um, older men get to abandon the girls to themselves and their families. If communities continue to shame survivors and do not punish perpetrators of rape, it is going to be dangerous. Some cultures think that if a girl is raped, it's because she was a slut or she was a prostitute. She wasn't properly dressed. So is marriage common among rapists and victims? Many families want to respect the family honor by not letting people know that this person got married to my kid because he had raped her. This gets to be some kind of an understanding between the both families. Many times it's a case of also of minors. This minors really can't make informed decisions about themselves. Culture has already made you to understand that a girl that has been raped before isn't much more valued as much as a girl that has never been valued. So she feels like nobody is ever going to want her anymore. Her self-esteem is shattered. The loan option she's got ears to also go along with her family to see that the family agrees that she goes over to the house of this man and starts saying that it's not like a very big wedding. It is a mutual understanding that is traditionally done between the both families. This even gets worse. If the survivor got pregnant, they wouldn't want to say that they want to have their daughter have a child out of wedlock through by rape. So to manage all of this family repetition thing, they give out also their children out of this marriage, through a lot of awareness raising and advocacy, we let families to understand that there is many more options around that because the right of the girl having violated. So rather than worshipping marriage. But again, we shouldn't get to the point where we are able to value marriage as against the mental, the psychological, and the social well-being of our daughters. We should be able to stand for them because every parent has a legal and moral responsibility to their kids. There is a health consequence to this. There is a possibility of looking at the sociocultural context and or legal services to ensure that the perpetrator is called to book, not just finding a way to dump the girl in the house of a man, but to understand also that marriages that go through this particular way poses the survivor to another wave or to series of abuses. A woman who didn't choose to marry a particular person and ends up finding herself in that particular man's house. Many times they are economically unempowered. They are unable to take part in household decision making. They are likely to experience even emotional and physical violence, which are other forms of gender based violence too. So if we are able to see that as families, we are not just sending out our girls to say, oh, because this guy raped you, you should get married to him. We should be able to grow past cultural practices that says about that, talks about this whole family honor thing, but also prioritize the mental well-being. A lot of girls or women who who grow through all of this, some of them get to divorce, but some of them could be exposed to risk factors around suicide, could grow up with a lot of low self esteem, and a lot of them could grow up with a lot of trauma or psychological issues. Many times, even though they could be forced when they get pregnant, forced to get married to those people. Many times the children who are born out of the sort of relationships they didn't like that they got raped. They tend to hate the children who were born out of those situations. I say it's not just a rape incident that the survivor experience, but also there is a transition from the survivor, but also the child who was born out of that, facing a series of child abuse incidents so many times, it may not be so legal because sometimes the survivors who are involved in these incidents are not up to the legal age of getting married.

Ramnani: Wow. So in your opinion, what needs to change?

Nangkeng: Child marriage is a human right violation and influencing a survivor to marry another person whom she didn't choose is also violating the rights of this person. A lot of options to pick from. Away from just marrying her off because she got raped by this person when a rape incident happened seventy two hours. We are supposed to ensure that the survivor gets medical support because she is able to request for a medical legal certificate, which can help her pursue the legal claims. Because a lot of rape survivors get pregnant from rape incidents, and many times they live with the trauma of having a child from a man they never chose within seventy two hours. There is a possibility that post-exposure prophylaxis are also given, which are administered, which will prevent unplanned pregnancies. Sexually transmitted diseases such as HIV, syphilis or gonorrhea also timely and quality services within that specified time frame that a survivor is not supposed to be. Because if you shoot bait, you risk removing some of those evidence. They need to also take up their responsibilities as caregivers. But also, marriage at the right time is very important to also ensure that the rights of the survivor is actually upheld. To say that you could provide other services to the survivor, such as psychological or psychosocial support, such as medical support, social safety services such as legal services. But they can't support a survivor adequately. The more reason why we need to intensify awareness raising activities to inform people what to do. Can pregnancies actually be prevented? In the case of rape, this is information that people need to get to say that if a rape incident happens, we should be able to give that survivor a second chance to advocate for her rights to help her seek justice, medical care, psychological support to ensure her holistic well-being. And if someday she still chooses to marry this particular person in question, that will be up to her. But to think that this particular person is imposed on her isn't the right thing to do. Perpetrators need to understand that there is a right way to seek the hand in marriage of a girl, but not necessarily raping her, because that would be the only way for you to get her. It's entirely wrong, and it's a human rights violation that should be condemned at all levels.

Ramnani: Okay. How common is it for a girl to have medical intervention after they have been raped?

Nangkeng: We look at Rwanda in a couple of their regions. They have what is called a one stop shop center. When a survivor of gender based violence generally gets one of those one stop shop centers, it becomes very easy for the survivor to get an array of services without getting to be very mobile. So there they can have medical support, the safety and security support services, economic empowerment, legal aid, a temporary shelter on the same spot, but also if survivors are not even aware that there is this amount of services present, it becomes very challenging. In a case where the shaming of survivors happens, it becomes very difficult for survivors to even disclose incidents. Also to go as far as seeking help response services from service providers, despite the fact that those services could be available. Now in cases where referral mechanisms aren't working properly. I have had an incident where we were implementing some activities with fundings from the UN. We were working in the east region of Cameroon, and we had a service provider share an example where a survivor was being sent to the Ministry of Women's Empowerment and the family to seek services. She was a refugee. She would go to the structure most times. So inasmuch as she doesn't want to tell a lot of people that she's been raped before, she is also not even aware who she's supposed to talk to. So when survivors are not able to have adequate access and coordinated access to services. It becomes very difficult to disclose incidents in emergency context where there may be a flood or there may be conflict also. All of those structures that were supposed to be providing health services also to survivors do not exist anymore. So the chances of survivors even seeking health care services becomes very much limited. The reason why some of them end up being pregnant, some of them end up contracting sexually transmitted diseases viral to HIV. If you do not have people around you who can support you during this moment, people trivialize rape. People do not know how grave the consequences of rape could be on a survivor. So once it is being trivialized survivors as well when they are raped, do not even recognize that this is a case of abuse and that they could seek further services, then the attitudes of healthcare practitioners or service providers also thought rape victims or survivors is something that gets to push survivors back from disclosing incidents. This goes to the human resource. It is very difficult for survivors of rape to open up about being raped.

Ramnani: Yes, exactly.

Nangkeng: Sometimes when some of them even open up to service providers about being raped, this information goes out and it gets you traumatized. Survivors such as. Sometimes they get to decline services. They cannot refer another person for services. The more complex a referral pathway becomes for a survivor to get services, the chances of they even seeking services after an incident becomes very low.

Ramnani: I see.

Nangkeng: Because if you should see an individual approaching a one stop shop centre automatically, society or community knows that she's a survivor of gender based violence. But many times people do not want to be tagged as survivors of gender based violence that also get to deconstruct the thing of trivialising rape. The thing of blaming survivors of gender based violence, or making perpetrators feel that it was right, or also hiding or protecting perpetrators of rape. It requires a holistic Approach.

Ramnani: What is your view on chemical castration? Could you explain it why it is not an effective deterrent? There are human rights arguments against this. And do you think this is a justification for perpetrators to avoid chemical castration?

Nangkeng: Chemical castration refers to the use of chemicals or drugs to stop sex hormones or production. Looking at this from a human rights perspective, I'm not so certain about the legal provisions that are available around this thematic. Also, there is the the whole thing of people being able to have the rights and control over their bodies, the ability for they to make decisions regarding if they should have sex or not, when also to have sex and with whom to have sex. It is about people being able to make decisions about matters objects around their sexuality. So if it is voluntary, the benefits chemical castration could happen to men. They should be able to make decisions around that. But if it is not consensual, then it's an abuse, really. Even if the man is a convicted rapist, it's a little dicey. Is it something that is incorporated? What are the considerations? This also exist? You know, why is it incorporated within the laws? We also need to see that we are not in a jungle where because this incident occurred, what are other procedures like for example, sometimes this person can be present for a while according to what the penal code for that particular country also says is this. Has this been a repeated incident? Like, for example, there are pedophiles that they would say that, oh, it's because they're pedophiles that they get they go to rape. It's much more hormonal than a voluntary act. Maybe these are people whom, because they do not have control around their sexual urge, that maybe you can say, okay, maybe we should put them through this so that they do not cause many more incidents. But again, with people who are sane and out of that category. Other alternatives should be tried. There is imprisonment, which is a good option. If this becomes maybe somewhat repeated incident, then this may be something that we want to do. What are also the dangers of chemical. It could affect maybe the person's sexuality for a lifetime. Maybe if imprisonment and payment of a penalty would have solved this problem. Other alternatives should be tried. Maybe the person the perpetrator should be put under also counseling because they to perpetrators as well need counseling. But unfortunately we always look at it. I avoid isolating the counseling perspective with perpetrators and if this other services that have been put in place doesn't work, then that may be the final option. But let's just still ensure the rights of those people are upheld. Else it should be enshrined in the law to say that every perpetrator will experience this. So I think it becomes a warning sign to other perpetrators. And this may also be a strategy to discourage rape, because every other person who may think we rape We also get punished. This is my take around it.

Ramnani: Okay. Thank you. So for anyone who is listening to this and experiencing gender based violence, what advice would you give them?

Nangkeng: If you're experiencing gender based violence? Please do not wait before you start seeking services. The very first thing you want to do is talk to the police. You also want to find out what are some of the organizations that are existing, but most also importantly, talk to people whom you think could be very much supportive to you. Break the silence and seek justice in the face of gender based violence, and also so that perpetrators could be called to book.

Ramnani: Okay. Thank you. I wonder if you have any final thoughts.

Nangkeng: I am just really, really hoping that institutions can be very much accountable stakeholders to see that we could do a lot of the talking, we could raise a lot of awareness, but if we are unable to convert the talking to action, it will be very difficult for us to live in a world that is free of gender based violence. So governments and institutions should be able to put in place mechanisms that respond to the needs of survivors, ensuring technology that can enable those survivors to get services easily call perpetrators to book deconstruct cultures. Practices that get to exacerbate the prevalence of gender based violence, enable survivors to get justice at any time they get to knock and prevent that, perpetrators are sent out back to the streets. So we should be able to have systems and communities that are accommodating and that push for the rights of survivors also getting into place. Another perspective that men and boys over time are becoming survivors of gender based violence. So we should be able to put in place response and prevention messages and services that target also men and boys, but also women and girls within communities and countries.

Ramnani: It was a pleasure talking to you about a very difficult and important topic.

Nangkeng: Thank you.