Ramnani: Today on the podcast, I'm joined by Lisa Dare, an executive coach, leadership educator and former clinical pharmacist whose life has been shaped by profound loss, caregiving and a deep commitment to compassionate leadership. Lisa has experienced the death of both her brothers and her father, and today she is also a full time caregiver to her mother, who is living with dementia. Through these experiences, she has developed a powerful perspective on grief, resilience, identity, and what it truly means to lead both in organizations and in life. In this conversation, Lisa shares her family's immigration story from Hong Kong to Canada, the challenges of navigating cultural identity, the realities of caring for a loved one with dementia, and why coaching became her calling. This is an honest, thoughtful and deeply human conversation about loss, leadership, and learning how to care for others and for ourselves.

Dare: Good morning Sapna.

Ramnani: Hi Lisa, How are you?

Dare: Good. How are you?

Ramnani: I'm good. Thank you so much for your time today.

Dare: Oh, you are most welcome. I'm absolutely delighted to be, um, to be with you and I. You have an amazing story. So I just thought, oh, I've got to meet this woman.

Ramnani: Thank you. I am delighted that you're on my podcast. I understand there were men in your family that you have lost. How old were they and when did they pass away?

Dare: I come from a family of four. I am the oldest. There are two boys and two girls. My sister is the youngest. So the boys were in the middle. So the younger of my two brothers passed when he was twenty three. And unfortunately that occurred when he was just completing his degree. He was just actually getting ready to apply for medical school, and he actually was injured quite badly in a motor vehicle accident. He was a passenger, his friend was driving, but unfortunately he sustained quite a severe head injury, and at that time I was in my mid twenties. That was the first event that happened in my family that affected the men. So that was sort of a bit of a drawn out process. There was litigation involved because his friend was driving, he was charged by the police. So there was a whole events that went along with that. And then in twenty twenty, my dad passed away. So during the pandemic, he had had a stroke three years prior to that. Um, and then unfortunately, over time, um, his condition, um, worsened. Um, and he passed. And then most recently, my, um, other brother, um, passed away suddenly last fall. Um, so he was, uh, in his mid fifties, sadly, um, as I reflected on that, um, all the, the men of my immediate family have passed on. So now it's just my sister and my mum and I, um, and my husband. So that's been the the story of loss in my life.

Ramnani: I am sorry to hear that. How did you cope?

Dare: It's interesting because I was reflecting on that. And of course, each loss is very different, right? Because each relationship is very different. I think in the first situation with my younger brother, it affected my parents, in particular my mum, quite severely in the sense that I think no parent ever wants to outlive their child, and in particular for my mum. Her children are kind of her her world, her universe. I honestly don't know how in that first loss I coped. But I had to go back to work. Um, and I worked as a clinical pharmacist and my clinical assignment was actually in ICU. So I did ask to be transferred because I didn't think I could actually continue to work in that medical service. It was just talking about it with people that were close to me getting support. It's certainly, I think, shifted my perspective on life because I think when you experience something that dramatic and that traumatic, a lot of things don't seem to matter anymore. And then I think with my dad, we knew that it was coming. So in many ways we were preparing for it. So I think that loss felt a little different. Although I guess what maybe helped a bit was just the fact that, um, knowing that there was an inevitable outcome coming, I really was very intentional about spending a lot of time with him, and we actually had the opportunity to kind of plan how things would go. I was able to be with him at the moment he passed, which was a real gift with my other brother. Most recently, I did actually seek professional help. So I have a psychologist that I work with. I really sort of, I think, leaned on the people close to me to really get that support and to talk about it, rather than, I think, internalizing it and just normalizing the fact that, you know what, there's going to be emotion with it. And I think just being easy on myself. Each one of those losses resulted in some very different approaches and strategies to managing it.

Ramnani: How are you doing now?

Dare: Pretty good. Um, because I now have something else to focus on which is taking care of my mom. My mom has dementia. Uh, so my sister and I are both caregivers for her. But I think having been through that much loss and that much change in my life, one of the things that I've come to realize is the importance of taking care of oneself, which is not always, I think, easy from a cultural perspective. Um, and also from the perspective of, uh, as a woman, we often tend to put others needs ahead of our own. But it's been a lot of very intentional effort to put myself first.

Ramnani: I would love to know about your work, and I will come back to your room later. I understand that you are passionate about coaching of leadership. What inspired you to follow this path?

Dare: Well, I would say that in my career that I realized that there were many situations where I didn't actually have the opportunity to experience good or effective leadership. It happened on a number of occasions. I got into coaching quite accidentally, just when I was in the pharmaceutical industry. And, um, one of my managers in my performance evaluation, I was talking to him and I said, well, I'd like to advance to the next level of my position. What do I need to do? And he said, well, maybe, you know, he said, take a coaching workshop or something, because at the time, our organisation had reconfigured its performance evaluation matrix and one of the competencies was around coaching. I didn't really know a lot about it, but I thought, okay, well, if that's what he thinks would be a meaningful thing to pursue, I did that. I took a workshop and then discovered through this one day workshop that I was doing a lot of the things that the instructor was talking about. And then I thought, oh, well, she gets paid to do that. So maybe that's something to look into. So I ended up taking a coach training program while I was still working, and then had the opportunity to start my own company, um, because the, the organization I worked for went through a downsizing. But I think I just discovered over time that that was the thing that I was really passionate about, because I think that we're all leaders, whether we have a formal title or not, by really understanding what it means to be a leader and focusing on leadership, it allows us to really show up and impact and influence the world in a way that we we want to see. And so I think for me, that's why I'm so passionate about it, because we all need that. We need leaders, especially with all the kinds of challenges and issues that are happening in our world right now.

Ramnani: Washington, D.C. what about the world when you want us to become a coach?

Dare: First of all, I think, you know, I discovered that coaching was a way that could empower people to make choices about how they wanted to live and to live in alignment with their values. One of the things that I found really meaningful about coaching was that it was I was able to help people, but in a way that empowered them, rather than them feeling like they couldn't do it themselves. And so that that to me was really appealing. I think from a leadership perspective, it was about changing the way that leaders led in organizations, and my vision was that we could have businesses and organizations that focused on people helping them to grow and develop, caring about them, making sure that that was the focus and that trusting that if they did that, that they could still get the results. Because I think a lot of leadership has evolved a lot from a very sort of transactional kind of approach where leaders are just focused on outcomes and results. But to one now where leaders are coaching, they're helping the people that work for them and work with them to grow and develop, to support them, to be empathetic to, you know, be much more emotionally intelligent and that that actually helps organizations to be even more successful than if they just focused on outcomes. Because I believe that businesses are about ideas. Somebody had an idea about something that they thought could make the world better or different, or add to the world in some way. And so I think, you know, business is something that's really important, but it's the way that businesses are being run and how people are being treated. I think that matters. That's the the vision that I had when, when I started as a coach and the one that I still carry now.

Ramnani: it sounds like you enjoy it.

Dare: It's incredibly fulfilling and meaningful. You know, when people say that, you know, if you find something that you love, you never work a day in your life, right? So that's kind of the place that I'm at, is that I'm really grateful for what I get to do. It doesn't seem like work, right? It challenges me intellectually. It allows me to connect and meet lots of really interesting and different people. There's no one day that's the same. I love it a great deal.

Ramnani: Great. So I want to move on to your parents with the three. Okay?

Dare: Sure.

Ramnani: I understand your parents moved to Canada from Hong Kong. Can you tell me when and why they came to Canada?

Dare: Um, so my dad actually came here as a young boy. That would have been, um, probably in the early fifties. So he was in a very small town in a place in a province called Saskatchewan for both of them. And then when my mom came, they got married in Hong Kong, and they came in the early sixties. It was seen as a better life. So at that time in China's history, communism had come in and my maternal grandfather was a physician. But of course, with the the Communist Party, you know, they were targeting different levels of society, right. So being a physician was seen as kind of more right, that sort of elite level of society. And my mom's parents just felt that they would have better opportunities if they were to come to Canada. So that's really the impetus behind them. Immigrating here was because they saw it as a way to create a better life for themselves. And so that's what they did. They ended up coming here after leaving China in Hong Kong.

Ramnani: I wondered if they told you about the problems of the new country and culture.

Dare: Well, I think obviously language, culture, you know, for my mum, she had, you know, grown up in an environment where because of the nature of the work that my grandfather did, they actually had servants. And so I remember her telling me that when she was getting ready to get married, my grandfather, My grandmother took her aside and said, okay, well, we need to teach you how to cook because, you know, my mom didn't really have to do any of that. So, you know, just learning that, right? Coming to a new country and like, learning how to use different appliances. Right. The isolation was challenging, right? Because there was at the time a small Chinese community, and they did live in what is now still Chinatown, but not knowing the language. Right. My mom was a young mother. Shortly after they got married, she had me. You know, that was a lot. Being away from family, uh, she did have siblings. Um, so I have aunts and uncles, but they live about two hours away by car. Right? She didn't know how to drive. Learning how to live in a completely different world. And of course, now it's different because there's so much more technology, right? But back then, there wasn't the same kind of resources. If you didn't speak the language because you were reliant on maybe trying to find a dictionary or that type of thing. Right? Was very much like being in a completely different land. Like a foreign land, like almost being on another planet.

Ramnani: It sounds very isolating.

Dare: Mhm. I think, you know, we realize now, certainly after the pandemic, how much loneliness and isolation can impact a person's well-being. Right. And in fact, uh, their health. Right. There was a, as I said, a small community, but not a lot. And of course, it took time for her to build those relationships and meet other people.

Ramnani: How long did it take for your parents to just to feel at home in Canada?

Dare: Um, that's a good question. I, I'm not absolutely sure. Probably when I was around six or seven, my dad partnered with somebody in a restaurant. So that's kind of what I grew up in, was in that restaurant business. I would imagine that it was probably a good ten years or so, because I know that at the time my mum was able to take English lessons because they used to provide that through a vocational school, which is now a college. It took some time because I guess over that ten year span, four of us were born. So we were each about two years apart. So over that ten year span, not only was my mom trying to continue to acclimatize to a different country and culture and environment, but she also had four children. So I think out of necessity, that probably really motivated her to learn English and to understand how things worked in this world that she lived in.

Ramnani: That sounds hard.

Dare: Yeah. Yeah.

Ramnani: What, if anything, did you retain from the culture in Hong Kong?

Dare: I would have to say not a lot for me, but I think for because I was born there. But I came when I was six months old, so. But I think for my parents, I would say that, you know, part of that culture and I'm not sure now because, I mean, obviously I haven't been back for a long time, and I don't know it really well, but I believe that it is a culture where people are very resourceful. They work hard. There's also, I think, value around family. And I think also it's a culture of creativity. And that resourcefulness is translated also into what can I do that will help? That will be an idea that will give me an opportunity to make a living. Right. Because it's, you know, it's a very competitive environment, but I think it's also one that learn to adapt to its environment because, of course, until, you know, not that long ago it was a British colony, right. So extracted a lot from the British rule that was there. And also I think for us it's also food and fashion, right. Because, you know, there's a lot of, you know, incredibly talented seamstress and tailors there and some beautiful craftsmen there. Um, so there's that. I think those are some of the aspects of the culture of Hong Kong that, that I've retained or been influenced by.

Ramnani: Would you ever go back?

Dare: Uh, I would love to. Yeah, I would love to go back. I've spoken about that with my husband. Um, the last time I went back was in the early two thousand. I'm guessing it's probably quite different now because, uh, that would. This is now after the handover to China. But I've mentioned that to my husband on many occasions because I hope to I don't know if it's still there, but I would love to, for example, go to the hospital that I was born in and, uh, you know, be able to show him the place that I was born and part of my history. So, yeah, I would I would love to go back. I'd go back in a heartbeat.

Ramnani: Can you tell me how would you describe your identity?

Dare: Yeah, that's a great question. Right. Because there's so much now awareness around that and I would say so many different aspects of identity. So obviously, you know, I identify as a female. I identify as heterosexual, right? I'm married, so I'm a wife, I identify as Chinese, I identify as Canadian, I identify as a coach. I identify as a sister, as a daughter. So it's very mixed, right? I identify as a calgarian, right, which is the city that I live in that I've lived in my whole life. Right. So, yeah, so many different identities that that I think come to mind, both for me personally, uh, and then also professionally as well.

Ramnani: Would you say you were more Canadian or more Chinese?

Dare: I would say that when I was growing up, I tried to be more Canadian than Chinese. Um, because. Yeah, because, you know, it's interesting. A friend of mine said this to me one day. She said, you know, growing up, if you were different, you didn't want to be different, right? So you tried to suppress, right? Those things that made you different. And I would say now that I'm probably more kind of I'm going to say sixty, forty Chinese and forty percent Canadian, right. Because I think there's much more interest. Right? Much more, I guess. What's the word I want to say? More safety. Right. To be different. Right. Before it felt like it wasn't safe to be different. Right. And my mom would always say that. Right? She would say, never tell anybody that you were born anywhere except in Canada. And actually, all my siblings were born in Calgary, right? I've always had dual citizenship. So you didn't want to do or say anything that made you different. And now I think it's changing because that really matters to me, right? I'm proud of it, and I want to continue to learn more about it, particularly now that, you know, my my dad has passed and many of my extended relatives are elderly. Right. We don't have a lot of those knowledge keepers in the family that can share those stories, right? Or share with us that element of our culture because it's getting lost.

Ramnani: I would like to ask you something about your mother. Would you mind?

Dare: No.

Ramnani: I understand your mother has to measure. When did she develop that?

Dare: Probably. It's. Of course, it's hard to say because the difficulty is. Is how do you distinguish that from just the person's behavior? Right. And I think when it started to manifest itself was around the time that my dad became sick. So my dad had a stroke in twenty seventeen. And I think that's when her behavior started to change. But at first it was quite subtle. It was kind of saying some strange things or being angry and having outbursts. Like I said, it was hard to tell because at the time she was also being separated from her spouse. Right? And he was in hospital and then ended up going into long term care. But I think in the beginning, looking back, it was some of those behavioural changes that started to signal the first signs of something happening. Right. But again, it's very difficult. Right. Because sometimes they can be very subtle. The thing about dementia, it's a very difficult diagnosis to make. And of course, it's really a cluster of symptoms. I think, you know, part of what also made it difficult for me personally is that I also didn't want to see it because I was already dealing with one parent who needed support and was not. Well, I think, you know, to to answer your question, Sapna, it was a lot of very extreme and bizarre behaviour, right? Because we would go to the bank and she would get upset, right? And she would, you know, yell at a teller. Have these outbursts. Right? And she would go to see my dad in the long term care facility, and she would get upset with the staff. She would be upset with my dad every. We all know that over time, as we age, we start to forget things. But then it was for her. It was the patterns, right, of things where she was really struggling to be able to cope. And I remember one situation where she was staying in an apartment downtown, and she got lost, and she was very upset because it took her hours to find her way back home after going to the bank. Right. So so that was the the beginning signs of, um, of the dementia.

Ramnani: How did it make your sister? And do you feel about this?

Dare: At the time, I, my brother was still with us as well. So he was very, um, pragmatic, you know, he just said, well, you know, she might need to go to a home. Right. And then my sister and I were very sensitive about it in the sense that, well, we didn't really want to do that, particularly because we already had one parent in a facility, and we could see that as much as people try to provide as much care as they can, it's not the same as being at home and being with loved ones. It was a mixture of anxiety and fear. Um, you know, denial, right? As I said, right. Just denying that this was even an issue. Um, and, um, the challenge for me, uh, not so much for my sister because I think she was a little bit more patient, but for me was that I would interact with the behavior. Uh, and I would interact in a way that was not helpful, um, because I would get quite upset. Um, or I would get really angry. Right? And I would be upset with her. Um, almost like a parent with a child. Um, and of course, it just wasn't helping, right? Because in reality, she really had very little control over what was happening, right? It would just happen.

Ramnani: Did you get any support?

Dare: Um, not not a whole lot. Um, because it was really, um, between my sister and I, um, my husband helped a little bit. Um, my brother wasn't involved a lot. Um, and it was also difficult because it was over the pandemic. Um, so in the initial stages, um, there was just a lot of just trying to sort out what was happening. Um, and to also, you know, at the same time, um, until my dad passed, trying to juggle between the needs of both of them. Right. So, um, so a lot of that was actually just falling to me and some of it to my sister.

Ramnani: Can you describe some of the things you need to do for your mom on a daily basis?

Dare: I can describe a day in the life of how let's do that, because that'll give you a good idea. Um, so, um, it starts so, so essentially the arrangement that we have right now is that she's still in her own home. Um, so between my sister and I, we stay with her full time, and then we do actually have healthcare, um, aides that come and support us. Um, so in the morning, um, I would get up, um, like, this morning, I get her, um, I go downstairs. She lives in a two story home. So I go downstairs to see if she's awake yet. Start making her breakfast. Uh, get all those things ready. And she has a very specific. She has very specific things that she likes. Um, then I get her out of bed. Um, then I get her up, I get her to the washroom, get her changed, cleaned so I, you know, do some, uh, hygiene, um, with her, some very basic hygiene. Um, she has her breakfast. And then usually by that time, our first healthcare aide is here. Our first our day person is with her until after, um, lunch hour. So she's here until one thirty. Uh, during that time, um, you know, while I have somebody here, it's kind of nice because then I can work or do other things, um, around the house. Uh, and then in the afternoon, um, I have several hours with her, and then I would be again, right. Toileting her, doing all of that, um, getting her something to eat if she needs something to eat. Uh, just attending to that. And then we have somebody who comes in the evening. So then that means I get her evening meal ready. Um, and of course, during the day, uh, lunch and everything else, I, I do that? Um, and then the evening, um, I get her dinner ready, and then she gets, um, the more evening person comes and gets her ready in the evening to, um, uh, go to bed. And then usually she is in bed if everything goes, uh, goes well, uh, around nine, nine thirty, uh, and then the cycle continues again. So, um, so that's kind of the day, right? Uh, and then during the day, she's entertained by watching things on TV, although we are thinking, you know, now that the weather's getting nice, we'll try and get her outside. Um, some walks. So. So that's like a day in the life of a caregiver.

Ramnani: Is it hard for you?

Dare: It can be in the sense that because both my sister and I choose to continue to work while we care for her, I have to be mindful of how much work I take on how to schedule, It impacts relationships, right? Because I don't necessarily have the the freedom or the time in my schedule, for example, to, you know, go and have coffee with somebody, right. Because it has to be very specific times, or I have to arrange for my sister to be here because there's always somebody with my mum. I think it's also difficult in that I need to make time to take care of myself. It's, you know, getting a walk in. Right? It's a, you know, making sure I eat properly, right, that I get enough sleep, all of those things. And as difficult as it can be, I'm also very grateful that I get to spend this time with her, because I know that some people don't have that opportunity to. They might live very far away from their mother and not be able to do that for them, or they've already lost their mom.

Ramnani: So what are the challenges of your employees when you need to take time off to care for your mom?

Dare: Well, I am in a fortunate position that I'm self-employed, So my technically my boss is me. So one of the things that I have found is that with my clients that I work with, because I, I have the ability to work from home, for the most part, they've been really understanding. Right? Because sometimes I might, uh, in the middle of a coaching session with somebody, my mom might wander in because she doesn't know what I'm doing, right? And she wonders what I'm doing. And I'll just explain to people what's happening. And people are extremely understanding. Or if I say, oh, I'm sorry, I just need to step away for a moment. I've got to get the door or my mom's wandering. So I just got to make sure she's okay. People are extremely supportive and understanding. You know what? I am very blessed for that. I do teach in person as well because I facilitate in person, and in those cases, my sister is able to come and cover for me. Unfortunately, in her case, her employer has a hybrid working arrangement, so she has requested but was not successful in getting remote working environment.

Ramnani: That's really good. Can you tell me what was your mom like before she got dementia?

Dare: Yeah. This is the part that I think makes me quite sad because she was very bright, very engaged. I learned a lot from her because she made the most out of her circumstances. I think she always struggled, regretted that, you know, because of her life circumstances. She didn't get to finish post-secondary education because she was enrolled in university at the time that she got married. But she was always coming up with different ideas, would be able to figure things out. She was very creative. After my parents retired from their business, they were in musical groups. She was, you know, doing lots of different types of folk dancing. She got very involved in tai chi. She was asked to teach because she had passed all these exams to be an instructor. She was a very bright, intelligent, engaged individual. It's important for people who don't understand this disease and only see people when they're afflicted by it, that they not judge that because they don't know what came before that.

Ramnani: I think that's a really great question, because for those who haven't dealt with this disease or understand it, they could be very quick to make assumptions or judgments about somebody. Have you got any coping strategies?

Dare: Yes. I mean, I would say that one of the things for me that has been incredibly important is just movement getting outside. For me, it's actually been getting outside and moving. My body has been really important. So I try and do that as much as I can. I also have a meditation app, so practicing mindfulness has been helpful, reaching out to people. Right? So I have a close friends, my psychologist that I can talk to. And I think one of the things that's really important is to be open and honest with people, right. To be vulnerable. Because keeping that all inside does not help. I think also as well, it's finding happiness and joy in the moment. Practicing gratitude. Right. All the things that we talk about, right, that help us to be resilient, but it's the recognizing that any situation that we find ourselves in, it's all about perspective and how we choose to see it. Not being reluctant to ask for help and help can come in all kinds of different ways. Help can come in asking someone to run an errand for you by a dry cleaning, right? I get the dry cleaner to pick it up. Although I love to cook and make everything from scratch. It's okay to have prepared meals. There's some great places that make meals that are very much like home cooked meals, and you just reheat them. I find, you know, little conveniences like, um, pre-mixed salad is helpful, right? If I don't have it, saves me a bit of time if I need to do that. Being in community from we have the Alzheimer's Society getting support from local organizations, connecting with people who understand that can, you know, provide guidance or support is helpful and as much as possible. And I keep working on this because I'm not really good at it, but taking care of my own needs, right, making sure that I'm eating healthy, that I'm drinking enough water, right. Getting enough sleep and not. And then I think at the same time, it's also about reassuring myself that I'm doing the best that I can, because I tend to be very hard on myself as many people are. But it is also reassuring myself that, you know, I'm doing a really good job and managing those expectations.

Ramnani: What do you think about the perception of other people towards you among the dementia?

Dare: I think it is getting better because the unfortunately the prevalence of it is increasing. And so there's greater awareness and empathy. People don't understand it really well. And then they're trying to be well intentioned. Unfortunately, sometimes people will just shy away because they don't know what to do or you know, it's just too much for them. I think for the most part with service providers, they're they're quite good because I think, you know, they understand that, um, they're patient. They're still, I think a percentage of the population. And as I said, unfortunately, even my own family members who don't really know what to do with it, they just disengage and they disconnect, which is unfortunate because. Right. Just even having additional support would be helpful, but they're too uncomfortable. Right. They just don't know what to do with it.

Ramnani: Do you have to offer it to other people who might be caring for a loved one with dementia, or other causes of memory and movement loss?

Dare: For me anyways, what was helpful was educating yourself, getting the resources. As I said, you know, different societies, different organizations, community resources. Be realistic about what to anticipate, right. Because unfortunately, right. It is one of these things that is not going to get better. And I know that we can never be completely prepared for losses that happen. But it is about, I think, being proactive in terms of what do we need to do right as this progresses, what are the things that we need to to have in place? Right, both from a personal level and also from a legal perspective? Right. We need to think about right. How do we ensure that this person is looked after? I also found it really important to do research around what are the resources and supports that are available, because I think that can be challenging to find all that information. So asking question, talking to others, um, that, you know, are experiencing this. I found it immensely helpful to be, um, in a group with the Alzheimer's Society, uh, and other people that were living with this because it gives you a sense of support and reassurance. Making sure that you take care of yourself as much as you do the other person, not hesitating to ask for help, and recognizing that help comes in all kinds of different forms. It's paying for people to do things right. It's okay to look for conveniences that save you time. One of the things that I think has been really important for me is to be really mindful of my own mental and emotional health. So once a month, I take a weekend off, uh, and I have a little retreat, and it's even having little mini breaks as well, right? Sometimes it's the I get away for half an hour and I sit outside or I go for a quick walk. Finding joy in the in the moment. Don't put it off. And I think it is about making peace with that eventual end. Right? We live in a society that is so stigmatized, um, and doesn't like to talk about death. Uh, but it is an inevitable thing. Um, we're all going to experience it at some point. We don't live forever. Um, and so I think there's something around the acceptance and cultivating a positive relationship with it that actually allows us to live more fully. Um, I really do believe that.

Ramnani: Do you have any final thought that you would like to share?

Dare: We all have our own journey to to live, right? Don't don't compare yourself with others. Be confident in living your life, uh, the way that it feels right for you. Because I get lots of people saying, oh, are you going to put her in a home? Oh, are you looking for a home? And it's like, well, no, we're not choosing to do that. right? Or we, you know, if we need to get to that place, we will. But not if we don't need to. And I would also say to that, follow your instincts and recognize that you know a lot more than you realize, right? So, for example, last week when my mom was in the hospital, I had quite a few doctors and nurses that said we have to sedate her because she gets agitated. What kind of medication do you want? And I said, no, right. I was a clinical pharmacist, right? So I said, no sedation. She's not going to get agitated. We're going to I'm going to be with her the whole time. And honestly, she was fine. I think these are just normal things. Who wants to get needles put into them? Right? Who wants? Right. Who wants to get some of these procedures done right? Nobody. Even. Not a normal person. Right? So. So I think there's also to the earlier question that you had, Sapna, there's a perception, sometimes even from the medical profession, a bias that like, oh, they're going to be agitated. So we need to do something about that. And in reality they may not. Even though I dealt in the world of drugs, I am a big believer in that. We don't need to medicate for everything. As the caregiver, as her daughter, as somebody who's with her all the time, I believe that sometimes I know best, right? Uh, even though I don't have all the medical training, um, I know enough to say, no, she's not going to need that. Right? So, um, and as I said, it all worked out fine, right? She was fine. She didn't really get agitated. Um, and when, you know, they had to do any kind of procedure, I was there, uh. And it was. Okay.

Ramnani: Lisa, it has been a pleasure talking to you today. Thank you so much for your time.

Dare: Well, and it was delightful to to chat with you, Sapna.

Ramnani: I hope you have a lovely day ahead.

Dare: All right. Thank you. It was lovely to meet you.

Ramnani: You too. Bye.